The Everyday Mystic

Japanese Principles of Resilience: Ikigai, Wabi-Sabi, and More w/ Saori Okada

• Corissa Saint Laurent • Episode 118

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To the outside world, Saori Okada was the picture of success: fit, wealthy, and climbing the corporate ladder in Toronto. But behind the closed doors of her 47th-floor apartment, she was battling a severe eating disorder and a crushing sense of emptiness. The pursuit of perfection had left her hollow.

In this episode, Saori joins Corissa to discuss her journey from hitting rock bottom to founding Mogami Wellness. She breaks down the ancient Japanese philosophies that saved her life, specifically wabi-sabi (finding beauty in imperfection) and the true meaning of ikigai, which the West has largely misinterpreted.

Corissa and Saori explore the intersection of Structure and Flow. They discuss why nature is the ultimate teacher of authenticity because it is "imperfect, incomplete, and impermanent." Saori also reveals how the practice of Japanese calligraphy acts as a "moving meditation" to bypass the thinking mind and access the state of mushin (no-mind).

In this episode, we cover:

  • The Wabi-Sabi Cure: How embracing imperfection healed Saori’s perfectionism and eating disorder.
  • Debunking the Ikigai Myth: Why Ikigai isn't about "what the world needs" or "what you can be paid for." It’s about finding joy in small, daily actions. 
  • Forest Bathing (Shinrin-Yoku): Why you don't need a forest to practice this, just a single tree and five minutes of sensory attention.
  • Kotodama: The Japanese concept that words have spirit, and why auditing what you say and hear is crucial for spiritual hygiene.

Notable Quotes:

  • "Nature is imperfect, incomplete, and impermanent... Do we say that there is a perfect flower? We don't." — Saori Okada
  • "I was starving, but I didn't want to eat... I was lying on the floor of my apartment, and I just couldn't shake this feeling that... this is not the solution." — Saori Okada
  • "Your writing never lies." — Saori Okada

Resources & Links:

Connect with Corissa:

If this conversation awoke or inspired something in you, please consider leaving us a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ review to help us reach more people.

Thanks for tuning in!

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Hey, beautiful souls. Today help me welcome our guest, Saori Okada. She's the founder of Mogami Wellness. They blend Japanese tradition with holistic well-being, which is a topic I'm so excited to get into. And in this conversation, we talk all about the principles behind Mogami. And these are principles for life. These are principles for our spiritual life, for life in general, even if you don't want to think about it as a spiritual journey, but just principles that help us live a better life, to live a more rich life and existence here. Things like being in nature and understanding our authentic selves and the powerful and beautiful concept that many of you have probably heard of already, Ikagai. And we get into it talking about both the framework around Ikigai that really got bastardized and changed from what it really is. So sit back, grab a cup of tea, and enjoy this conversation with me and Sarah Yokata. You're listening to The Everyday Mystic, where we share advice and stories grounded in the practical and supercharged by the spiritual. I'm your host, Carissa St. Laurent, and I'm on a mission to demystify the mystical and transform your everyday life into one of greater meaning, higher purpose, and true joy. If you're ready to tap into your inner wisdom and the energy of all that is, you're in the right place, and we're so happy you're here. Let's get this party started. Hi, Saori. It's so good to have you on The Everyday Mystic. Hello, I am so excited to be on. Thank you for having me. Well, this is going to be such a joy because we were already talking before I hit record. One, your beautiful setting here. It almost looks like a virtual background because of how serene and character-filled and beautiful that it is. I know you live in London and you chose this spot specifically because it had a vibe. Wellness vibes through and through. Tell us a little bit more about where you're sitting and your space.

Saori Okada:

I'm based in Woolwich, which is more in Southeast London. And, you know, I chose this place because to me it's actually very soothing. And I do like how in London there's actually a lot of new builds. So, you know, maybe Krista in your area as well, but basically they're, you know, new apartments and they are very clean and new and modern. But I feel like sometimes it doesn't have character and it seems like they all look the same. And something that I was looking at for my own place was trying to find something that had more of that authentic feel. And I feel like hopefully that's coming through in what you're seeing right now.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

It so is. And you know, your company follows these five principles, these wellness principles that come from your heritage, from Japanese culture, and wabisabi is one of them, right? So that authenticity that you just mentioned of these old buildings and cracks and places that aren't that sleek, perfect modern look. You can probably tell by the way I say that that I that's not me either. I love authentic. I mean, really, it the wabi-sabi of where there is a feeling that is invoked by something that isn't perfect, but it has character. So, what is it about wabi sabi? Can you define that a little bit more for us? And what do you think it is about it that opens our heart or hits us differently than let's say those sleek new modern constructions?

Saori Okada:

I always like to define it as nature's way of helping us understand what it means to be authentic. So if we think about nature, it really is the most natural form. And it follows, you know, what we say, these three main principles. And so nature is imperfect, it is incomplete, and it is impermanent. If we break that down a little bit more, it means that, you know, do we say that there is a perfect flower that's one that's perfect over the other? We don't, right? And so it's this idea that it's actually meant to be imperfect, and so that's actually helping us understand that we are not meant to be perfect as well. Um, when we say impermanent, we talk about this idea that, you know, nature is always moving, it's similar to seasons. And I always think that we also have seasons of life, and it's really important to recognize that. And then lastly, it's incomplete, meaning, you know, nature is never done. You know, it always has another day, has another cycle. And I think this is really important for us because in our lives, I know myself, I would be in these traps where saying, you know, when am I gonna be done with this journey of healing? Or when am I gonna feel like good enough? And it's these if-then statements that can really get us into these traps of feeling that we have to be done or complete. But, you know, in a way, that's the beauty of life where we have this journey and we're continuously on this journey and it doesn't end. I think wabi sabi is a way for us to connect with our authentic selves. And even making sure that we're surrounded by the wabi sabi concept and you know, even our surroundings is to me really important because we are reminded that we are meant to be like nature.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

That cycle that you mentioned is so, so important. I think we're taught, probably brainwashed uh from an early age to think and live in this linear fashion of progress, that we're going to go from this and then we're going to gain these skills and get to that, and then we're going to achieve this, and then we'll have that. And then it's this the word that comes to mind is a false premise that we are going to get to a final destination rather than that every thing we're doing along the way is the creation of life, is the living of life, that it's not, well, we get to that final destination and then we get to have whatever the riches, the feelings of worthiness, the whatever they are. And certainly in Western culture, that's been the lie, I think, told and taught to so many of us that once once we get there, then we get to have XYZ. Rather than really being able to live in and know and understand that we are all of those perfect, beautiful wabi-sabi concepts of imperfection, of incompleteness, that that that it is a cyclical nature. We're always going to be living within that. That's just beautiful.

Saori Okada:

Yes, because I always feel like it's important for people to reflect on. And so, you know, people that are listening, I would love for them to try this as well. Where, you know, where in your life is this popping up where perhaps you're seeking perfection? I always say I'm a recovering perfectionist. I think this was very strong for me. But also exactly your point of, you know, this if-thone state statements. You know, I could say that I had a corporate career, I was um very focused on, you know, career progression and working hard. And I would work so hard towards a promotion that I really thought I wanted. And then I would get that. And then somehow, you know, you don't really feel anything. And then you're actually just being like, okay, great. Now I need to get promoted again, or I need to make more money so that I could feel worthy. And it's actually a never-ending cycle that I feel like is an empty pursuit. And I do think that a lot of people are caught up in this cycle. I always think that awareness is the first step. So asking yourself these questions and reflecting on it is going to be the path for us to break free from that cycle. Unfortunately, I do think a lot of us are being brainwashed or, you know, told that this is our way of succeeding or feeling happy in life, but that's not necessarily um true.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

What was it for you that broke you free of that path? Corporate perfectionism. I know that you also struggled with an eating disorder. Those are some heavy-duty things of programs and conventional perfectionism, people-pleasing kind of things.

Saori Okada:

What broke you free of that? You know, I was 23 and I was just starting off my career, and I was in Toronto. I was probably the fittest I've ever been. So um I did have a various types of eating disorders. And so um, at that point, I was just under-eating and over exercising. So I was exercising maybe two, three hours a day, and I was not eating enough. And so I was I was very thin and fit. So, in many ways, I looked physically the best I have ever been. And I was in a job and career that I was successful in. And so I was financially in a good spot. So I was ticking all these labels that I thought, you know, society has told me. So I was like, okay, looking great, nice. I'm living in a nice place by myself. I'm on the 47th floor in Toronto in like a really nice area. I'm making a good amount of money. And I sat with myself, and I have never felt more empty. I remember this feeling where I was starving, but I didn't want to eat. And it was 10 a.m. And I said, you know, I was lying on the floor of my apartment, and I just couldn't shake this feeling that I was like, if this is what life is about, then it's not fit for me. I just can't, I don't think that this is the solution. In a way, I really had to hit rock bottom where I felt completely empty. And I will say, you know, at that point I said, if there is another way, I have to explore this because living like this is not sustainable for me. And so that was really the journey where I started looking into what is it if I took care of myself beyond the physical? And so I started looking into holistic well-being, and that really led me down the path of understanding, okay, what if I took my care of myself, mind, body, and soul? What does that look like? And the journey really started with taking a look of the hard things. You know, I always feel like healing sometimes is not the easiest, but I do think it's important to look into, you know, what was driving some of these unhealthy habits of perfectionism, of being so strict to myself. And for me, it was trying to understand that I can love myself for who I am. And it's not about me being perfect that ties me into me being worthy. That's actually not true. And so it's about okay, how can I understand being authentic? And this wabi-sabi framework really helped me as well because it really helped unlock some of these blocks that I think were driving some of that behavior.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Yeah, that rock bottom moment is very common to send us within to be that catalyst for that inner journey and inner inner exploration, and we can thank it for that, right? It's so incredible that if you get the gift of a rock bottom, then you know, to be able to see it as that, I think is amazing. And so many of us start our journeys from that place, from that, as you said, emptiness, that place of the void. So going from that void, starting to explore the darker recesses of the void, right? Where you're like, well, okay, what's down here? And then you discover all these places of healing, right? The these places that need healing, that need nurturing, that need attention, that need love, really. I know it's not one of your main principles, but this brings to mind Kinsugi for me, of where there's that beautiful practice of making something even more beautiful in the repair of it. Is that something that you reflected on or that was brought into your own healing journey?

Saori Okada:

Yes, I do think that your point about, you know, rock bottom is is such a gift in a way. And I think it takes a long time to get there. So, like if someone's hitting rock bottom and they're saying, Okay, I don't feel like this is a gift for me, you know, please know that. I definitely felt that as well.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Absolutely. It does not feel like that immediately, but it becomes that once you get to that point of reflection, right?

Saori Okada:

Yes. Um, because I remember a key learning for me was that I was not good at reaching out to my community in a way that was vulnerable. Where, for example, you know, in the past I would be in romantic relationships and I thought I had to be the perfect partner. And so I showed no signs of weakness, you know, and I thought that I had to do XYZ to be what I thought was a good partner. But in a way, you know, I think I realize now that the relationship I'm in now is is so much more healthier because I actually don't feel this constant anxiety that I felt back in the day when I thought I had to be perfect and I had to say certain things. So I do think that what I learned from this journey has helped me shine in a most authentic way. Even the work that I do now, I feel like because I've been through that journey myself, I'm able to connect with people. I'm also able to align my authentic self with my work, which I wouldn't have been able to if I didn't really hit that rock bottom to understand what it is that I wanted to do.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

And that's the most beautiful thing that us spiritual warriors, I like to call us, because it is a battle. This battle with not the true self, it's a battle with the old self, the programmed self, the ego self, the wounded self. And we battle with ourselves to kind of come through with our truth and come through with that authenticity. And in that spiritual battle with our true self, we get to experience the beautiful outcome that, yes, someone listening now who might be either having just hit the rock bottom or going towards it at like a speeding train and they feel it, it's happening. To your point, absolutely know that it's not going to necessarily feel like a gift right away, but that through the just path of discovery, like you were just talking about, of understanding and really finding that true self within, you then get to see that in retrospect that, oh, if I hadn't gone through that, I wouldn't be here in this moment, in this now. And you could see that too, of even the if I hadn't done all those things to hit that rock bottom, I also wouldn't have hit that to get to past that, right? So all of it truly is part of the journey. It's all part of the journey. So it's not like you just enter the spiritual journey once you realize that you are in it. We're always in it. It's just of what whether we awake to it or not and are aware. So I love what you said earlier about that awareness piece, becoming aware, maybe through something that catalyzes you, like a rock bottom moment, but then stoking that awareness through these principles. Like you said, choosing your space very carefully, choosing what you put in your body, choosing what you surround yourself with, where you focus your mind. Like all of those things are choices that can impact the continued awareness or not, because we get to go back to sleep so easily.

Saori Okada:

That's true, yes. And while you were talking, what came to me was the theme that we're focusing on at Mogami this month is is kotodama. And kotodama is this Japanese concept that is essentially saying that our words have spirit to them. I've been thinking a lot about this, not only in you know what we say, which is very important, but what are we hearing as well? What are we reading? What are we seeing? What are we filling our space with in terms of words? I think this is a really important reminder that I've been practicing myself because not only is it important to reflect on the words that we're saying, because they do have spirit, they do have energy that I feel like we need to be mindful of, but also, you know, who are we surrounding ourselves with? Are they, you know, speaking words that align with who you want to be, with the energy that you want to feel? And also it's not just speaking, it's also what you're reading, what you're writing. I think these are all important things that we need to pay attention to because they do really fill up our space in in ways I think we need to pay attention to.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's so true about words having power, words being spells, words being their own entities. And I say this about everything, really, you know, as far as us living here in this plane, I I see it as all energy, that we are all energy and as is everything that's here, that exists here. So the words, the sounds of those words, the words in writing, all of it carries an energy, and it is then, therefore, its own energy. I mean, we could imbue it, I suppose, with our energy as we speak something, but it also has its own, it's its own entity in that sense that we're then interacting with. And I know you're a calligrapher, Japanese calligrapher. How does that work in that beautiful art form of working with the energy of that word or phrase as you draw? I would imagine you're like kind of playing with the the words as you are creating not you're not creating them, but you are kind of giving them a form on that piece of paper. That to me just seems so beautiful.

Saori Okada:

In Japanese, we say it's shodo, is how we say Japanese calligraphy. And you could translate that to sh is writing, and dol is the word for journey. So um, Japanese calligraphy is the way of writing because it is a journey and it's rooted in over 2,000 years of history. It's said to be one of the three traditional arts. That helps us guide us through life's journey. I've done calligraphy now for over 25 years, and I actually have my mom to thank because she really wanted me to stay close to my culture. So she did calligraphy, so she wanted us to do it as a child. So I'm so grateful for that. But I will share that in calligraphy, it's considered a moving meditation. There's this idea that we want to be in a state called, which is translates to mind of no mind. So it's a state where you're free of all thoughts, all assumptions, and you're completely present. And so perhaps you've heard of flow state. I think it's a little bit similar to that. But what's interesting is that in calligraphy, we know that if you think about being in machine, you're not in machine.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Right.

Saori Okada:

There's that mind at work. Exactly, exactly. So we understand that. So in calligraphy, we say, okay, we understand that this is the state that we want to achieve, but we're gonna forget about it actually. And we're gonna focus on our hand and the movement that you're writing that's gonna help guide us get there. So in calligraphy, you know, when you're writing, it's really quite interesting because, you know, when you're writing a new piece, for example, like you want to first practice the stroke order. There is an order to how we write our characters. So sometimes you find that your mind is thinking a lot. But um, I think the beauty of it is through repetition, through being in the moment and working with your brush, you could find that flow state and you could really connect with um your writing. And there's a saying in Japanese calligraphy that uh your writing never lies. What I'm we mean by that is that sometimes I will say I wrote a piece and I look at it initially and I really don't like it. And it's interesting because I hear this inner dialogue saying, Oh gosh, the stroke here is not in balance, you know, you're probably not focused or you went too thick in this push. Like I hear a lot of inner chatter that's happening like right after the piece. But we always say, take a step back and look at your piece tomorrow. And then you see it. And I will say some of my favorite pieces that I've ever written were the ones that I first really didn't like. And it's quite interesting because you're seeing the same piece that you've written, but you're seeing it in a different way. So I think in a way, our writing is can be a source of truth when our minds can try to confuse us.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it being your authenticity, right? You get to actually see something that was produced from hopefully the no mind state as much as possible, but from your truth, the flow from that inner self-guidance of where you're actually then able to see it. That that to me is also a beautiful part of the art form and that you can reflect on it forever and probably see so much in that about yourself as you just observe it and be with it. I love that. You brought in something totally new to the podcast of talking about. I mean, we've talked about writing on this podcast a lot, you know, journaling and free-flow writing and allowing, you know, spirit to guide your hand and just getting into a flow state with writing. We've talked to many authors who've written books that way, channeled books this way, of just getting into that flow. So we've definitely covered writing, but this is another layer of not just writing words, but bringing to life these forms, bringing to life maybe something that in and of itself, once you have the piece, as you call it, done, it will inform further meditation or inform your life through that interaction with it. Is that how you feel about about it? That's just how I look at it.

Saori Okada:

Yes, and um, there's many beautiful practices within calligraphy that I think really tie into your points. At the beginning of the year, there is this writing practice called kakizome, and kakizome translates to your first writing. We want to do this within the first two weeks of the year, but we want to write your intention of the year. What's really important about this is that we write it and then we want to make sure that we could see it. So it's it's a visible reminder. I have wine downstairs in terms of what I wrote this year, and I look at it every day. And in a way, it's always reminding me of my writing, but also my intention and also what I felt at that time. To me, it is a way to connect with yourself, with your authentic self. It's also a way to connect with your soul and what's inside because it is an expression of your soul. And I think it's a beautiful way to connect with yourself every day because it is hard. In this world that we live in, I genuinely think I understand so we have so much stimulus, we have so much things to do that it is difficult to think about ourselves or what our inner soul is wanting. I think it's actually we have to make sure that we make these practices so that we don't forget about ourselves because it is challenging, but we can do it if we just need to have those reminders every day.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Yes, and reminders to the to the audience right now of what you're saying is that meditation doesn't have to be just sitting on a mat and closing your eyes and chanting om and what people often perceive of as meditation. Meditation can be moving this way through calligraphy. It can be moving in nature and just walking. And these moving meditations are absolutely as valid. They're not just like, oh yeah, start there until you get into real meditation. It's not that. They are all valid ways of getting into that no-mind state, getting into that flow state, really just aligning with our soul and on source. And however we can do that, that's valid. And I love that you brought this into the podcast because, like I said, it's not been discussed before of using an craft like uh calligraphy to meditate. But for anybody who, because so many people do, say, oh, I can't meditate. And that's just a common refrain. Oh, I can't meditate, therefore I'm not going to, and and you know, F that thing. Instead of understanding that there are so many ways to meditate. And I hope anyone listening to this now who feels that way, of like, oh, I can't meditate in that traditional way of sitting, closing the eyes, and being still, that there are these ways to meditate. And even if you don't know how to write Japanese characters, you could do something similar. You could write in English or your language and and kind of mimic the form, even do something similar, or like I said, walking in nature, forest bathing that is uh tied to Japanese culture, certainly, but not owned by um the Japanese people in any way. We can all just write be in the forest, and it feels so amazing to be in nature. It is the one thing that I think is mentioned in every single one of my podcast episodes of how people connect to their soul and to connect to God is through nature. Every single person mentions it, and I know that through uh Shinrin Yoku, is that how you pronounce it? Yes. Okay, so that through that, through forest bathing, being one of these strong principles, I would imagine one for that meditation, but what else for? What else is within that practice that is so beneficial for us? In words, because I think we can all feel it. But yeah, well, can you explain that a little more?

Saori Okada:

Yes. And I will say I a hundred percent, I think Japan coined the term Shinin Yoku, which translates to forest bathing, but I honestly think like this is probably the most universal practice that I feel like almost everyone will agree with you that spending time in nature is rejuvenating. There were studies that supports that, which I feel like is why it's picking up in the wellness industry. But to your point about, you know, how it helps us, um, I mean, when we think about forest bathing, I do think sometimes your point about, you know, some people say they don't have access to a forest or they don't have access to a fully immersive experience in nature. And if we really look into the practice of Shininyoku, it is simply to be mindful and spend time in nature through our body's senses. So I think this is a really great way to go home back to our bodies. Because when we think about our everyday life right now, I think a lot of times we have desk jobs. So, you know, we're on our computers every day and we're not really connecting with our bodies as we did before. But, you know, the practice of shining yoku is really when we're spending time in nature, it can honestly be outside of your local park. It could be really just if you walk out in the river, you know, if you see some trees, that could be considered shiny yogu as long as we are paying attention to our five senses. So, what are we smelling when we're outside? Can we touch some of the trees? How does it feel? Uh, we could do some grounding exercises where we take our shoes off and we walk on the ground. And how does that feel? You know, what do we see? You know, when we start paying attention to the actual all the colors that our, you know, each flower has, it's actually super fascinating and it's a way to come home to ourselves, which I think we don't really get to do. And by doing that, of course, there is some physiological benefits, but I do think it is in a greater sense, you know, just coming back to ourselves, which I feel like we don't do enough.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

That is again another one of the brainwashing programming techniques going on of removing ourselves from what we truly are, which is this natural being. I mean, we're a spirit residing in this natural beingness. But I mean, we're another animal here. Yes, we have a consciousness that may differ from other animals, but we are flesh, bones, blood coursing through our veins. We've got all of the same parts. And so to remove us from the nature of who and what we are creates that schism that really is uncomfortable. It feels people feel it. You feel that, and I think it leads to that void and that emptiness that you talked about earlier. So just getting into nature, or like you said, just touch a tree, put your feet on the grass instead of in your shoes. And you could literally have one tree, it doesn't have to be a forest, right? You could just have one that you spend some time with and touch and smell and look at. You know, at the time of this recording, it's spring, and it's so beautiful to watch that progression right now of what's going on with the trees. And you see, you know, what was once a flower now turning into these leaves, and the color changes and the texture changes. I mean, you could literally just look at one inch of a tree and just watch the cycle of that throughout the year and be immersed in all of this.

Saori Okada:

Yes, I love this point because I do think sometimes, you know, some of my clients say, you know, I don't have the time, or you know, I don't have a forest where they, you know, I feel like we can make a lot of these reasons why we can't practice these simple things. But honestly, I would say, like, take five minutes and go outside, find your closest tree, and just stare at it, and you will be amazed. It's it's so fascinating. And I also love that it's accessible. Like, you know, you don't need like 200 pounds to like go see a tree, you know, it's right outside. And I feel like um, you know, I think this is like a really beautiful gift that nature has given us to connect with ourselves, and then also in a way, I think it by appreciating the nature, it also reminds us that we have to take care of it.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Yeah. Taking care of ourselves, then, which is really, I think the thing that comes out of being on a spiritual journey is that you finally realize that you're part of the one, that we are no different, and then where there is no separation between you and I, between us and our desk, between us and the animals, and certainly with the other natural elements, we are one with it. And once we truly come into that understanding and that acceptance or that knowing, it's it's like none of the things that we sought before seem to matter as much, or none of the problems that we thought we had seem to matter as much, right? All of those things seem to seem trivial to the fact that wow, we're this being interwoven in all of this incredible miracle that we exist in. And getting to that point is, I think, the point of a spiritual journey. Rather than, oh, we're on the spiritual journey to ascend to heaven or nirvana or some off-planet to another planet, right? We're, I believe, on this spiritual journey to come home to that truth of who we really are and to then be able to really experience heaven on earth, that we get to live into this incredible life that we have here to live into. But it does require a lot of that turning off of, as you mentioned earlier, not listening to those words that are going to pull you out of this truth that you're that we can be in, that we're focusing on spending this time with nature. We are nature too, but when we get to be in those more natural environments, it truly gets to we get to resonate with it, right? We're like, oh, hey friend, hi friend. Like, okay, now we're like it it enlivens that in us.

Saori Okada:

When you were saying this to me, I I felt like that's the gift of the spiritual journey is that we are able to be present. Yeah. You know, I think sometimes it's difficult to understand what that means or grasp, you know, we often say like you want to be in the now. But I have some people say, you know, what does that mean? Or how do you get there? Or what's the benefit of that? But I think everything that you explain so beautifully is the gift because, you know, in many ways, people have different ideas about, you know, what happens after our time here on earth is done. But, you know, I think for me personally, you know, I will never know the answer to that. But to me, it's more like I think the goal of a spiritual journey is to understand the preciousness of our time, but also through these practices, be able to be present so we don't miss these moments that are, you know, that will fly by so that we could fully experience through all of our senses and through all of our emotions, even, you know, and so we could really be present and make the most of the time that we have here.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Yes, we talked about presence before we hit record when you were sharing how you're somebody who doesn't have the best memory. Um, you didn't say it that way, but that you can kind of get lost in the city and not remember where you were, where how you got from A to B. And I can be absent-minded in that sense too, of where sometimes seems like I'm unaware of surroundings, but it's almost like being aware of it from a different place, being aware of it from that still point place or from that now moment. Not like, oh, where was I just five minutes ago? But oh, I'm where I am is right now. Yeah. So what a gift. Whether or not you cultivated that gift through your practices, or that's always been your way. I don't know. It's a gift, no matter how what however you slice it.

Saori Okada:

That's true. It's probably a little bit of both. Um, but I will say I I do think it's it's great when you have that sense of, you know, it's almost as if it's your first time. You know, I think that having that childlike curiosity is something that I actually really try to not forget because it makes life so enjoyable when you're experiencing things in the now and not getting so caught up in like the mind. And I think that's something that I really try to practice because I think we all have busy minds. And so, you know, it's more like okay, how can we make peace with it? But then also use these tools like um forest bathing, where we practice and then also when we go to places, yes, absolutely. I think sometimes I've been there like five times, but I I I honestly feel like it's my first time and like all giddy and in awe, and it's great.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

I love it. Well, this brings us beautifully to Ikigai, because one of those principles within Ikigai is that focus on those little things and those little things bringing you joy and being able to actually be present with that, I think is, and I want you to flesh this out for us, but I think that's such a beautiful aspect of Ikigai. And a lot of people in the West have heard of Ikigai, but I think you're gonna help us to dispel some of those myths around what they may have experienced of it, which is a bit of a bastardization of the concept. So let's clear that up right here and now of where did it go awrong or awry for most people who understand or even have heard of this concept here in the West? And then what is it truly?

Saori Okada:

So Ikigai is probably most well known as the Ikigai Venn diagram. You know, it's saying that, you know, your life's purpose is the intersection between what the world needs, what you get paid for, what you enjoy doing, and what you get paid for. It's quite interesting because if we do a little bit of research, we'll find that this is coming from a few different things. But um there was a British blogger named Mark Wynne who watched a TED Talk that was talking about Ikigai. Being a key contributor to longevity. He watched that TED talk and he repurposed a different purpose vendiagram that was created by a Spanish astrologer named Andrew Susanaga, completely irrespective of ikigai, but it was just actually purpose. And so he changed the word purpose to ikigai. And then he wrote a blog post about it. And the rest is history, as we say.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

That's that was enough for it to just snowball into yes.

Saori Okada:

And wow. In a way, I mean, I first I first and foremost, I do it's okay if you use the Venn diagram. And it is most commonly used in a lot of coaching. I mean, I love frameworks, but if you want to know the real meaning of ikigai, like that is not the Venn diagram. And I think it's important to talk a little bit about like the history. So it's like, yes, let's we debunk that in terms of that is not what ikigai is. Now the right question would be, you know, how do we define ikigai? So ikigai is the combination of two words. So there's iki and gai. And to me, the way I describe ikigai is, you know, let's look at the source, and the source is the word itself. Yeah. Iki refers to life, and gai means reason for being. So, you know, ikigai is, you know, your reason for being. But the beauty is in the details where if we look at iki, the word, um, it refers to a lot of daily action. So your daily life. And it also recognizes that our life here is limited. So it's referring to this specific lifetime. And then guite, which is your reason for being. One, it refers to things that are action-oriented. And I think this is beautiful because it's telling us that your reason for being should help you take action. And then the second point is that you hope that the results will be worth it.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

That's the part that kind of got pulled out into Western thought, right? They're like, oh, worth it. That means you're making lots of money or that it's of value to other people. And and I think even within what I know of the concept, it there doesn't really even need to be value to other people.

Saori Okada:

Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm so glad you pointed that out because when I see the Venn diagram, the point part that I worry about is a lot of it is external labels. These are things that are sometimes out of your control, you know. And what we're saying about Ikigai, you know, what I hopefully, you know, people understood is that it's really internal driven. And it's really about what sparks you joy in every day. And it has nothing to do with, you know, what you get paid for, for example, or what the world needs. It's a lot to do with more those small everyday moments. You know, what actions can you take that spark joy that you believe to be your reason for being?

Corissa Saint Laurent:

Yeah. And if we're translating that, a lot of people obviously have different definitions of the word purpose or what the meaning of purpose for them. So I can see how that could be conflated, you know, with purpose. Oh, well, there's our why right there, our reason for being. So I can see how those things could could have gotten, you know, mashed together. But as you said, the it's in the details. So in the details of not just that word purpose or a concept of purpose, but in the action of it and in the living of it and the interplay of what that means in your everyday life, which is why I love the concept so much, because in the everyday mystic ethos, it's how do we weave in these aspects of whether it's purpose or love or our connection to source and to who we are as our true nature and meditation, you know, and all the tools and practices as well as the concepts, how are those woven into our everyday? It's not a pursuit so much as a way of being, a way of living. And to me, that's ikigai, in that you it is your way of living, or if you choose to live in this way of where you're you are finding purpose in those moments, and you are finding those joy that joy and the all those small things. And then you're discovering who you are through it, through those pursuits, but it isn't it isn't just a one thing, it's it's like a discovery process.

Saori Okada:

That's so true. And I mean, even ikigai, you know, I think in the Japanese context, like um you could have many ikigai. It could change over time. And I think it hits on exactly your points about, you know, your purpose. Sometimes I could feel this can seem like this grand pursuit. And I think ikigai actually reminds us to go back to the everyday and find those moments every day where your purpose is aligned with what you're doing in the everyday. It's also about accepting that you're evolving, you're changing. But it is important to always have that as an important reminder that you you want to have an ikigai. Everyone has the right to have a ikigai in us as well. So I want everyone to make sure that they they think that they're worthy of it because they absolutely are. And let's try to think about those everyday things that can give you that sense of ikigai.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

What are a few things that someone could do to help discover what that is for themselves?

Saori Okada:

Yeah. So I think a simple practice is kind of hit on all the things that we talked about, is spend some time, it could be five minutes, to just think back to the moments, the past couple of months that really brought you joy. And leaning in on this emotion is really important. It's not really external facing, but it's where you're having that sense of joy, where you're having that sense of ease and write those moments down because we also just talked about how you know our words have spirit. So let's bring those to the surface. And then I think after we do that, these are clues of what your ikigai is, what your soul is trying to tell you. And then from there, we could really take it further. You know, you could work with a coach, you could talk to your friend, you could, you know, start having these conversations about your ikigai moments, is what I like to call them. Because these are basically, you know, who are you with? You know, what was it that really made it your feeling of purpose or, you know, your reason for being? And then trying to understand how we could bring those more of that into your life through various means. You know, we talked about those tools that you mentioned, meditation, mindfulness. How can we create a lifestyle that really aligns with these ikigai moments? I think that's the best way that we could get started.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

That's beautiful. And it can be woven into your work and your value that you're creating in the world, right? It's not that it can't be brought back into those things, but it isn't defined by those things. Yeah. Would you agree?

Saori Okada:

I absolutely agree. And I think that's why it's really important to start with that practice, what I I just mentioned, because you're starting with you. You're not starting with your professional job or those external labels. We could bring those ikikai moments, those ikigai components, and then bring it to our professional job because it is true that, you know, as adults, we spend the majority of our time working in some capacity. So I do think it's important that we try to weave in what we find. And it's completely possible and important to do. So I completely agree with you.

Corissa Saint Laurent:

I'm so happy that we got to spend this time together and that the audience got to hear more about these really rich and complex concepts. We've just touched on the surface of these things. I'm gonna have the links to your website. I want people to be able to connect to you and then obviously go deeper on these concepts with you and your company, because this world, this life, this journey that we're living isn't just a one-shot deal here or there, oh, you do this thing, you'll, or you hear about this thing, and then you go to one yoga class or you go to one calligraphy class and then you're done. It's it is a constant state of unfolding and exploration. And so if any of the things that you heard on today's episode struck your heart, opened it up a little bit, excited it, brought that little sense of joy, then go deeper with it. That's an invitation to go to the Mogami Wellness website to connect to Saori, to connect to this wisdom that is complex to the point of where you could study it or immerse yourself in it for your the rest of your lifetime, even just one of these concepts, or take what you want from it, take what you seek from it, and then move on. But uh, an invitation certainly to explore these concepts deeper. And I'm so happy that I got to just spend this short amount of time with you exploring these. Before we leave today, is there anything that you want to share with the audience, whether it's how they can connect to you or what they might do first? Like, what's a good starter point for people?

Saori Okada:

I think the most important thing is what you mentioned is you know, do what feels right for you. You know, if it is to take this piece of wisdom that you had from our conversation and, you know, take it into action, if it is working closer with you, Carissa, in terms of the, you know, your work, if it is your you're called to look in more into Mogami's resources, I think all of those options work. And I think what's important is I just hope that everyone pays attention to that voice inside and takes action in a way that best aligns with your soul.